Close enough California passenger cars

Randy Hees
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Close enough California passenger cars

Post by Randy Hees » Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:23 pm

Craig and I have been discussing if there is common “California” passenger car design or designs for a “generic” California passenger car model.

Towards this end I find myself trying to identify families of passenger cars.

So far I am coming up with

Kimball duckbill roof coaches. 8 cars - for NPC (one later on NCO)

Carter Duckbills - 1876-1882 or so for SPC, later used on Lake Tahoe, NCNC, NS/NWP, and Sonoma Valley (it also appears that from 1882-1884 they continue to build car to the same general plan, but with a bullnose roof end. Particularly SJ&SN caboose, later 1009, and their coach, and a the A&MR coach) These cars are built as 12 and 13 window coaches, baggage, combine and caboose styles in a great variety of lengths.

Barney and Smith two orders for NPC, two cars for Santa Cruz RR, cars for Carson & Colorado. There were likely at least two styles of cars… and at least two lengths.

Carter 8’ wide bull nose roof cars, starting with 1885 coaches for SPC, followed by cars for OR&L and NPC. (John Hammond cars may be similar)

American Car Co for F&CC to NCO (models by LaBelle and Star in the past)

Odd balls
2 used coaches on Lake Tahoe
2 combines, SP 24 & 25
Millwood
2 Jackson & Sharp parlors for SPC
Eastern built cars for NCNC
2 groups of Pullman coaches for NPC
Reno built NCO cars

I don’t know how were to put the NPC cars with arched doors… Likely late Kimballs… if so they may match the car built for the Pacific Coast.

Currently Wiseman makes some duckbills based on Dale’s old parts. The caboose is accurate for SPC 45-48, but the coach and baggage are too short.

Michael’s OR&L cars may work for the 8’ wide Carters. His DSP&P prototype may work for some of the Barney & Smith cars.

What do you see?
Randy Hees

Director, Nevada State Railroad Museum, Boulder City
Railway Preservation News http://www.rypn.org
Chasing old trains where ever I may find them...
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Andrew Brandon
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Re: Close enough California passenger cars

Post by Andrew Brandon » Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:03 pm

A couple more oddball cars:

Diamond and Caldor combine #1002. I believe if I remember correctly, it was a former California and Nevada car which was either a Hammond or a Carter.

Is that California and Nevada coach or combine still in Richmond?

The NCNG Canda cars seem to be similar to the J&S cars of the period like E&P coach "Eureka". These cars have a roof line similar to the B&S coaches.

NCNG shop built coaches, which were too odd to really fit in anywhere. I am not sure they are close to anything other than the Canda cars of which they are similar in general dimensions.

Sierra Valley Ry. Brill built combine. I can't remember if it served on the N-C-O or not, the car still exists in Alturas

The Carter coach at WRM, Herman has indicated to me in the past that this is built to dimensions of the narrow gauge cars.

N-C-O Pullman sleepers should be similar enough to the NPC Pullmans. I think Cimarron did these a number of years ago, but they might be a different plan.

C&L Boxcar/Baggage. Has a knock off Hammond roof (I think?)

Other C&L cars?

Cap' Shaw's Duckbill Baggage car drawing, Herman has mentioned he feels the drawing may represent the early, mystery NPC B-M-E's

LTR&T "Rattler". Hammond "Tourist" Coach.

Not all of those are coaches of course, but it helps expand the more generic roof types which could be adapted from potential kits.
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Randy Hees
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Re: Close enough California passenger cars

Post by Randy Hees » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:27 pm

Andrew...

The D&C car is built new by Holman... I have photos.

The SV Brill fits my weird list.

The WRM coach is likely a 8' bull nose roof car

The NCO D&RG Sleepers are earlier than the NPC cars, and a different lot... The Cimmeron cars are the NCO cars.

The C&L cars are probablly similar to the 8' RR roof cars

Cap Shaw's baggage is Weird... origin so far unknown

The Rattler may be another 8' wide car...

I am fast thinking the 8' wide is the common denominator...

Randy
Randy Hees

Director, Nevada State Railroad Museum, Boulder City
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dsp&p_fan
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Re: Close enough California passenger cars

Post by dsp&p_fan » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:14 am

Those J&S parlors on the SPC look like clones of the original NG Pullmans...the four Plan 73 cars build for the South Park in 1879. Here's a photo of one in the Ted Kierscey Collection:
http://www.narrowgauge.org/ncmap/ted/dspp3_pcanyon.html
I wasn't 100% certain even after reading the caption that they weren't Pullmans...they are that close in appearance. I'm planning to do the Plan 73 cars in my second or third generation of cars (I need to gauge the market before ordering a bunch of custom wheelsets and casting custom trucks (30" wheels with 6'wb trucks). In my opinion, the NPC's late model NG Pullmans look more like AC&F cars than the classic design of 1879-1880s.

From what I can tell, there were two standard Barney & Smith passenger car designs. The short, 35' cars like the NPC had, and the long cars (40'-40'6") like the Carson & Colorado. I'd estimated that the production of the short cars was something along the lines of 1873-1877, and the long cars were 1877-1883. Yesterday, while re-examining the only published photo of a passenger train on the College Hill Railroad (approximately 3 miles from my house), I have been forced to discard that theory. On March 10. 1876, the College Hill RR took delivery of two passenger cars from Barney & Smith. Their combine is clearly one of the 40'-40'6" cars (the coach is some odd, short thing with paired windows). This delivery date is not only earlier than the other cars of this design, but also earlier than the NPC order (I don't have Best's book on the PCRy to check the date on their order).

The Billmeyer and Smalls cars built for the E&P in 1875 are also quite intriguing. That bizarre, hooded roof style seems to have been a year or so out of date when those were delivered. The design is pretty close to the original 1871 3' gauge passenger car built by J&S for the D&RG. The first South Park cars were of this same style (1874). Harlan & Hollingsworth also offered cars of that design. I may or may not do a kit for the first couple South Park cars (the roof would be common to any of the above cars), but I will definitely be adding them to my own fleet. The South Park did have a series of six cars which came from an obscure Wilmington builder (undoubtedly, formed by former H&H and/or J&S employees using their designs) which have the same details, but a more modern 8' width. These six cars are what first got me interested in resin casting cars...which opened the door to the idea of offering kits.
From the same:
http://www.narrowgauge.org/ngc/graphics ... pp0012.jpg

While I strongly prefer Plan 73 sleepers, I certainly understand why Cimarron went with modified plan since nearly all other NG Pullmans had that same window pattern. But I find it baffling that the NPC went with new Pullmans in 1893 instead of acquiring some of the numerous surplus Pullmans that were floating around at that time. Perhaps they just wanted new.

Based on my reading, 7'6"+-1" was the standard NG passenger car width for the various hooded and duckbill roofed cars. The early bullnose (and transition duckbills) tended to be 8'. The fully developed bullnose cars were frequently 8'2". Of course, there were exceptions (the South Park's 8' wide hooded cars; 8'9" wide EBT cars). If one person measures over the sills and another over the siding, an 8' wide car can become an 8'2" wide car.

Early cars tended to be 34'-36'. Many later cars seemed to be 40'-42'6". Exceptions are quite numerous, such as the 36'2" Oahu cars and the 48' Pullmans.

The NCNG cars are out of left field. IIRC, F. Canda was more of an inventor than a car builder. I can recall reading about him (I want to associate him with the Ohio Car Co.), but I don't recall anything about him actually having a factory. Perhaps he subcontracted the construction using his own design.

Michael

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CraigH
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Re: Close enough California passenger cars

Post by CraigH » Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:54 pm

All,
I'll slowly start posting images, maybe contribute some thoughts shortly. The focus will be on roof styles, clearstory windows, and other details. Time's an issue for me these days.
NPCCoachesCazadero1895.jpg
1) NPC Coaches, 1895 at Cazadero, CA.
CSRM-005resized.jpg
2) M&SV Combine at CSRM
msvroof3.jpg
3) M&SV Combine at CSRM
vtcc08v&tshops.jpg
4) V&T #8. Not Narrow Gauge. Kimball Duckbill.

More shortly.

Craig H
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Randy Hees
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Re: Close enough California passenger cars

Post by Randy Hees » Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:29 pm

Check the clearstory vents in the B&W photo in Craig's photo in the post above... the same vents are on the M&SV car in the later photos...

These appear on all of the Carter Duckbill cars... and on some bullnose roof cars as well, but not on the OR&L cars...

I suspect these are a Carter/Hammond detail. We have several examples in the SPCRR collection, from SPC 47, but also found on our A&MR smoker... that car had a interior vent door as well. The castings are a bit crude, as expected on a CA sourced part...

Thoughts???

Randy Hees
Randy Hees

Director, Nevada State Railroad Museum, Boulder City
Railway Preservation News http://www.rypn.org
Chasing old trains where ever I may find them...
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Brian Norden
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Re: Close enough California passenger cars

Post by Brian Norden » Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:21 pm

A couple of thoughts:

* The NPC "Pullmans" actually were coaches -- not sleeping cars like the N-C-O sleeper-buffet cars (ex-Tonopah, ex-Pullman service on the D&RG). Somehow, I have the thought that these were bought for the commuter service.

* Here is some information from Ralph L. Barger's book A Century of Pullman Cars: Volume II - The Palace Cars:
The 10-section cars (Plan 73 & 73A) built in 1879, 1880, 1881 and 1883 for use on the DSP&P, D&RG and UN were built by Pullman at its Detroit facility (this is before the factory at Pullman, Illinois). total of 29 cars
The 10-section-buffet cars (Plan 178) built in 1883 for use on the D&RG were built by Pullman at its Detroit facility. (It is two of these six cars that ended up on the N-C-O)
Brian Norden

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Re: Close enough California passenger cars

Post by dsp&p_fan » Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:29 am

Brian Norden wrote:A couple of thoughts:
The 10-section-buffet cars (Plan 178) built in 1883 for use on the D&RG were built by Pullman at its Detroit facility. (It is two of these six cars that ended up on the N-C-O)
The Plan 178 were the 48' (over the sills) cars. They were essentially just the Plan 73A cars with an extra compartment (pair of windows) in which a 3'6"x5' buffet was fitted. There is a drawing (with floor plan) in Sloan's magnificent book, The Rainbow Route. Another drawing was printed in the Gazette. It seems that many NG Pullmans were converted to coach service. You didn't really need to do anything to put them into that sort of service (the differences were principally in the bunks above the passengers heads and the non-reversible seats).

The NPC seemed to be a touch short for Pullman service, while the NCO seems a bit more like it. Still, they were fine cars which could be used as extra fare cars even if they were on day trains.

Michael

Randy Hees
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NPC Pullman built cars

Post by Randy Hees » Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:17 am

The NPC Pullmans were coaches built by Pullman, not sleeping cars.

As best I can tell they were purchased for use on the commuter trains between Saucalito, Mill Valley and San Rafael in East Marin.

There were two orders placed, cars 22-27 in 1893 (6 cars) (2 gone before NWP, 2 to White Pass) and cars 38-41 in 1897 (most (all?) converted to standard gauge for use with electric suburban trains, 2 motorized)

Basic Dimensions (from NWP class book, same as ICC filing in 1916)
1893 1897
Seats 50 58
Truck WB 6' 6'
Truck centers 34' 4" 34' 8"
Width inside 7'10" 7'10"
Width over eaves 8'10" 8'10"
Length over end sills 39'6" 45' 8 1/2"
Length in train 44' 51'8"

Both classes had steam heat (as did the 1893 Carter cars)
Randy Hees

Director, Nevada State Railroad Museum, Boulder City
Railway Preservation News http://www.rypn.org
Chasing old trains where ever I may find them...
http://randyhees.blogspot.com/

Brian Norden
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Re: Close enough California passenger cars

Post by Brian Norden » Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:20 pm

dsp&p_fan wrote:It seems that many NG Pullmans were converted to coach service. You didn't really need to do anything to put them into that sort of service (the differences were principally in the bunks above the passengers heads and the non-reversible seats).

The NPC seemed to be a touch short for Pullman service, while the NCO seems a bit more like it. Still, they were fine cars which could be used as extra fare cars even if they were on day trains.

Michael
I'm away from my reference material. But many, many of the Pullman ng sleeping cars in Colorado were later used in Mexico.

The N-C-O operated buffet (light food) service out of the sleeping cars. I have yet to completely analyze the N-C-O passenger schedules -- but part of the trip had to be either later into the evening or a very early departure because of the distance traveled. What worked will for the Reno merchants did not work for the traveler wanting to go to San Francisco -- so the company was "caught between a rock and a hard spot" in running its passenger service. The write-ups I've read from the Reno papers indicate this problem.

The T&G had these cars for several years after the conversion until they were sold to the N-C-O. The T&G reported shortly after its gauge conversion and consolidation that it had the sleepers and a couple of ng coaches up on sg trucks.
Brian Norden

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