Drawings

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dsp&p_fan
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Drawings

Post by dsp&p_fan » Tue May 04, 2010 6:43 pm

Any recommendations for the best Carson & Colorado 4-4-0 drawings?

I've acquired a basket case spartan series 4-4-0 and am thinking about C&C #1 or #2. I may end up taking her in a few other directions, but C&C or a local Cincinnati prototype are my leading candidates (South Park #2 or Oahu Railway #45 are currently in 3rd and 4th place due to the additional modifications they'd need).

Michael

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CraigH
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Re: Drawings

Post by CraigH » Fri May 07, 2010 11:39 am

Michael,

What scale is the Spartan? Unless you're doing a very serious rebuild with a lot of parts fabrication, a basic Gazzett drawing may be fine. Add to it the appropriate PSC catalog for parts. IF in O Scale, You'll want to use Doug MacLeod's parts wherever possible. In most cases, the parts are plenty good, better and cheaper than most scratch building efforts at these scales.

There are over 120 Baldwin factory drawings in the wild related to the 8-18's. I/we've refrained from posting them as the museums are trying to claim copyright. To stay on great terms because we want to keep good access and stay friends, we're shy about sharing at this stage on this site. Politics.

For HOn3, PSC's Early C-16 parts cover (Fluted or Domed) domes, cab interior, pilot, cylinders, bell, etc. for the major assemblies. Don't bother with most of the cab interior unless you dig for aftermarket remotoring kits.

For On3, Doug's bits cover Cab, Fluted Domes, and several other bits. Flesh out with PSC parts. Doug's are absolutely the best. Buy direct or via Foothill Models.

I've done 2 in HOn3 (one 4-4-0, one 2-6-0) and one 2-6-0 in On3. Have one 4-4-0 in On3 that's waiting on a final decision from MMI before I decide what to do. To do them absolutely to Baldwin drawings, sell them and use the cash to build 100% from scratch. With the Spartans, match up Gazzett style drawings, photos of the real loco, to the catalogs and have fun.

Absolutely remotor and regear the things. Add all the electrical pickup you can. Dig through the archives of the relevant Yahoo Groups for strings on the subject. Boone also did a couple articles in the Gazzett, late 90's, and again 3 or 4 years ago.

Craig H
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Re: Drawings

Post by dsp&p_fan » Sat May 08, 2010 10:21 am

The Spartan is On3...I devote 95%+ of my efforts to this scale (and only debate the switch to Sn3 every few weeks). Similarly, I have the PSC catalog and am familiar with some of the detail parts which are out there. Wherever possible, I prefer to create my own detail parts.

Here's a cylinder block/crosshead assembly that I built:
Image
I'm not completely happy with it. The model is for testing the durability of fabricated styrene as a material for scratch building locomotives. I really don't care for brass. Someday, I'll get around to etching nickel silver which is a superior material for locomotive frames.

Here's another photo with a string of scratchbuilt trucks:
Image
They still need their springs, NBWs, and journal lids, but they are capable of service. They have plastic wheels largely because they were dirt cheap...I prefer to have NSWL wheels under most of my models.

I'm looking for accurate drawings for On3 construction...rather than Baldwin Drawings. Having cataloged 800+ AMC Berkshire drawings, I definitely prefer to build models...when I can...from accurate model plans. I now anticipate that I won't go the C&C route with this engine; the boiler just doesn't have the bulk of the C&C engines. I would, someday, like to build a C&C engine from scratch.

My concern for accuracy is based off of experience. I've definitely used/seen more flawed drawings than correct ones. Hence, I'm interested in hearing what is the best drawing of the C&C engines (George Turner's or some other source). I'm well on my way to having created a drawing for DSP&P #2, which will likely be the other scratch built 4-4-0.

For 8-18Cs, I'm inclined to just use commercial models (spartan series or PSC) so that I can put my time into the rolling stock and the locomotives which do need to be scratchbuilt/bashed. My butchered mogul is likely to be the basis for one of them...one of the local engines of which there is almost no documentation and only a couple photos...photos from when they were 10 years old. The three local roads with Baldwin 4-4-0s were: The Cincinnati & Eastern, The Cincinnati, Georgetown, & Portsmouth, and the Cincinnati Northern/Cincinnati, Lebanon, and Northern. The CN locomotives were numbered into the TC&Stl numbering scheme, so I'd probably shoot for an 1883/Narrow Gauge Trunk Line-on-the-verge-of-failure look. The only information I have on CN/CL&N rollingstock consists of a few photos and loose ends published in the W&W book (Narrow Gauge to the Pan Handle). The Cincinnati Northern should be a familiar name to west coast narrow gauge fans...two of "their" moguls wound up on the SPC and one then proceeded on to the NCNG.

I'm familiar with your thread on the On3 group; your mogul is a very fine creation.

Michael

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Re: Drawings

Post by Randy Hees » Wed May 19, 2010 12:34 pm

The Spartan is an 8-18c (or 8-18.5c) which is smaller than the C&C locomotives. On the other hand it is correct for the NPC, SPC, Santa Cruz RR, Eureka and Palisades, and many many others including OR&L No 45.

My list of possible locomotives is posted here on this site at http://www.pacificng.com/beta/ref/blw/818C/8-18C.htm

Randy
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Re: Drawings

Post by CraigH » Thu May 20, 2010 7:11 am

Michael,

Thanks for the compliment on that On3 Mogul. It's a combination of scratch build and commercial parts. Basically, I scratch build when I can't find anything useable or accurate commercially. This one's an exercise in the heavy use of Baldwin Drawings and a great example of not using Modeler's Drawings. I did something similar to a Bachmann 1:20.3 8-18c years ago.

I understand the desire for good modeler's drawings. In a lot of cases, Builders Drawings contain too much info!

Personally, I've had a hard time finding them (Modeler's Drawings) for complex structures like locomotives (at least the ones I've modeled). Here's where I'm probably going to tick someone off...heartfelt, humble apologies to everyone I offend.

In too many cases, while the artist may be good at drafting, they generally don't have access or the opportunity to measure or copy the original manufacturer drawings. In a lot of cases they don't really understand the structures they're drawing. Think in terms of "armchair historian". We've also seen plenty of drawings that have scaling issues with end, profile, and other views in conflict, etc. I also run into issues with line-weights and picking off dimensions that agree with one another.

I've been going over a lot of Passenger Car drawings lately, Carter, Kimball, Barney & Smith, some Pullman. They've been a combination of Modeler's, Manufacturer's, and Museum Restoration drawings. I'm trying to reverse engineer framing and timber sizes and other elements for a couple cars I want to model (interior and exterior). The mess goes into CAD drawings which I love. It's a great way to spot bad dimensions and shapes that don't fit, etc.

One of the CAD projects is to reconstruct the Business Car "Millwood" on the NPC. Another is the restoration drawing (part by part) of the NWP 5591 Caboose, now at Ardenwood. Several others are Passenger Cars for potential kitting purposes. These are all long term projects.

On the Spartans...when I dug into mine (have the 2-6-0 and a 4-4-0 in On3, plus a similar pair in HOn3), I found that the things deviated A LOT dimensionally from the prototypes. Much of that was due to practical needs like stock material thicknesses used and "shapes" simplification to accommodate the manufacturing processes used....the model can become a major scratch-build to get it right. So much so, I came close to starting it over, from scratch.

Regarding C&C locos...I haven't had a chance to focus on that road. Hopefully some day!

Craig H
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Re: Drawings

Post by Curtis_F » Sat May 22, 2010 5:13 pm

dsp&p_fan wrote:Any recommendations for the best Carson & Colorado 4-4-0 drawings?
Michael,

There is a drawing of NCNG #7 (former C&C #4) in the March-April 1997 Narrow Gauge & Shortline Gazette, page 54, by Ed Gebhart that is the best I've seen yet. The over all size is correct, but what frame details can be seen in the drawing are wrong. Also it's drawn with the steel replacement cab.

There was a drawing in the 2006 March-April Narrow Gauge & Shortline Gazette, Pg 52, of the C&C 4-4-0s that I have not seen.

In the California State RR Museum Library is another drawing I haven't seen. As I recall it was made in the 1960s, so it's not an original RR or Builder drawing. You can search for the drawing info under the header "Technical Drawings" here: http://csrrm.crewnoble.com/


Basic Dimensional Info:
Engines 1-3 : Driver Diameter 41"
Engines 4-8 : Driver Diameter 44"
Lead Truck & Tender Wheels: 24"

Driving Wheelbase: 8' 2"
Overall Wheelbase: 20' 1"

Boiler Diameter at first course (behind smokebox): 46"

Sand Box: 21-1/2" Diameter (same as a D&RG C-16)

Stack Diameter: 14"


Cheers,

Curtis F.

(EDIT. Corrected an error where I stated #4 had 41" drivers when it actually had 44" drivers )
Last edited by Curtis_F on Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Drawings

Post by dsp&p_fan » Tue May 25, 2010 6:17 am

Curtis: Thanks for the info on the drawing. I'll get a copy of that ASAP. I tend to recall you posting some drawings of the suspension here in the forum.

Randy: Thanks for reminding me about the list. If I were to go with the Santa Cruz prototype, I won't need to replace that pesky blind driver...it would make for a neat model in that respect.

Craig: I totally agree. Creating drawings isn't easy, especially if the drafter focuses on only a few railroads rather than on an era: they aren't always aware of standard practices and make simple mistakes. Even if they know better, chances are they'll make a few errand lines. I've probably found errors in more of the drawings I've worked with than those which were correct to the best of my knowledge. Still, I greatly appreciate their efforts to draw the equipment.

Anymore, I'm inclined to use what materials I can get my hands on (detail parts being an exception...I gave a 15min clinic this past weekend encouraging modelers to create their own detail parts if they correct ones aren't commercially available). If a flat car is drawn with 4"x10" sills, I'll use 0.080"x0.188" styrene not merely because it is close, but also because I'll have better quality control from sill to sill than if I attempt to cut true 4"x10"...knowing full well that the actual dimensions of the sills could have been 3.75"x9.5" or 4.5"x9.75".

I'm currently designing some Oahu Railway freight car kits, and I've decided to go with the commercially produced channels: 12"x4" instead of the prototype's 12"x3". These will form the center and side sills. If I can't come up with a reasonable approach to resin casting them, I'll just use rectangular stock. Before I get to that bridge, I've got to build some detail parts for the Oahu Railway coaches: platform end sills, vents, needle beams, bolsters, and brake hardware.

Michael

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Re: Drawings

Post by Curtis_F » Tue May 25, 2010 8:24 am

dsp&p_fan wrote:Curtis: I tend to recall you posting some drawings of the suspension here in the forum.
Michael,

That was in the thread about the D&RG 4-4-0s : viewtopic.php?f=13&t=15&start=10

It's just a CAD image of the 2.5" scale model I was working on.


Cheers,

Curtis F.
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Re: Drawings

Post by Andrew Brandon » Tue May 25, 2010 10:04 am

Curtis,

Can you make up a set of artwork for those frame drawings with your name and proper credit? I'll stick it up on the site under the Baldwin section. I'd suspect there are a great many people that would love to see your work.
Andrew Brandon - PacificNG Webmaster
An End To Red Domes In Our Lifetime!

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