SPC Carter Brothers 28' Flat Cars

amdaylight
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 1:39 pm

SPC Carter Brothers 28' Flat Cars

Post by amdaylight » Sun May 30, 2010 1:12 am

Greetings,

I have a few questions and need a few opinions regarding some cars that I am going to build in Fn3. This whole process started when I bought one of Accucraft's wonderful live steam Americans, the SPC #3 in green. It may not be 100% accurate for the SPC #3 but it is live steam and so what the heck. I plan on using Hartford Large Scale Products short kits to build three or four of the 28' Carter Brother’s flats and two or three of the 28’ ventilated box cars to run with my American. I have already added the rear pilot as shown in the book on early California narrow gauge cars to the American.

Now on to the questions, first does anybody know the exact size of the side sills on the 28’ Carter Brother’s flat car? The reason for this question is when I take the Hartford wood list and try to convert it to wood that I can order I come up with a slight problem.
Taking the dimensions of the wood listed for the side sills .222” x .567” x 16.552” and converting that to dimensional lumber using the scale factor of .04926 I end up with some weird sizes, for example. .222” ÷ .04926 = 4.5”, .567” ÷ .04926 = 11.5” and 16.552” ÷ .04926 = 336” or 4.5” x 11.5” x 28’ When I used a scale card for 1/20.3 and measured the drawing that came with the short kit the (and I hope my drafting instructor did not see me doing this from heaven because he would have killed me) drawing does have these weird size timbers shown. Obviously this could be a 4” x 12” x 28’ piece of scale timber. So what I am asking is did the Carter Brothers use standard dimensional sizes like a 4x12 or did they use custom cut timber like a 4.5” x 11.5” for their cars? Most of the other timber sizes called out on the parts list is equally strange, ½” bigger here and ½” smaller there.

Now onto the opinions required. Should I even worry about the scale ½” or just use the closest scale sized wood? Next opinion, the drawing shows ship lap decking on the flat car, should I make ship lap siding by running scale 2x8 wood through the table saw or just use the 2x8 as they come and call it good. Third and I am inclined to do this should I cut notches in the end sills and for the inner sill to fit into or just use a butt joint? No one will ever see the notches unless I turn the car over and show them the notches.

I spent two or three hours going over the parts list and the drawings trying to resolve this dilemma. If the Carters definitely did use these weird sizes then I will try to the best of my ability to mill the wood to the proper size other wise I am tempted to use the closest common size.

Thanks in advance,
Andre Anderson
Portland Oregon

Solomani
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:30 pm

Re: SPC Carter Brothers 28' Flat Cars

Post by Solomani » Mon May 31, 2010 12:49 am

Andre,

I am the wrong guy to ask but I will reply with: Build it! don't worry about all the finicky little details unless you plan to enter it into a contest. I wish I could take my own advice though. I consistently worry about every little detail, like ship lap or just boards, and do not get much of anything built. I draw up 'blueprints' of thing that would never be seen without a microscope on a F scale model. I have agonized over the boxcar drawing I have made and posted here and have enjoyed resolving the puzzles but I have yet to put together one Carter Brothers boxcar.

As for custom cut lumber, yes, they largely made or had made to order their own lumber. Dimensional lumber that we have today did not come until many years after the Carter Brothers heyday. If you decide to cut or mill down your own lumber be safe! I have used my Proxon saw to some good effect but I would like to make some improvements for long timber as I am just not getting the tolerances I want. But then again, is .001 inch accuracy really needed :?

best regards,

-John

Randy Hees
Posts: 464
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:07 pm

Re: SPC Carter Brothers 28' Flat Cars

Post by Randy Hees » Mon May 31, 2010 2:44 pm

There are two sizes of 28' Carter flat cars... 10 and 15 ton capacity. The sill sizes are different.

The 10 ton cars rode on 3'8" wheel base trucks with 24" wheels

The 15 ton cars rode on 4' wheel base trucks with 26" wheels.

In both cases the side sills are much larger than the intermediate and center sills.

I will need to check notes but I should be able to locate sizes.

As noted earlier, the Carter Brothers were not tied to standard lumber sizes, and could and would have ordered exactly what they thought was the best size. A Carter drawing for a gallows turntable shows that each of the three pairs of truss rods were a different size with the outer the largest (carrying the greater load) the largest.
Randy Hees

Director, Nevada State Railroad Museum, Boulder City
Railway Preservation News http://www.rypn.org
Chasing old trains where ever I may find them...
http://randyhees.blogspot.com/

amdaylight
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 1:39 pm

Re: SPC Carter Brothers 28' Flat Cars

Post by amdaylight » Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:28 pm

John and Randy,

Thanks for the input regarding the lumber size that the Carter Brothers might have used. I suspect that this is for a 10 ton car or at least I hope it is. I have sent an e-mail to Bob Hartford to see what his input is on this little dilemma that I am having.

As to the trucks Bob at Hartford makes two different ones both have a 4' wheel base, one has 24" wheels and the other has 26" wheels. I measured the wheels that came with my car kit and they are 24". So it looks like my trucks are going to be a little off because I believe that the SPC had the 10 ton car not the 15 ton car.

At least when I get to the building of the box cars I will know weather to use stock size timber or to custom mil the wood.

Thanks again for the responses, when I get this lumber size figured out and get started on the construction of the car I will post photos of the build of the said flat cars.

Andre

Randy Hees
Posts: 464
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:07 pm

Re: SPC Carter Brothers 28' Flat Cars

Post by Randy Hees » Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:45 pm

The SPC had 8 ton, 10 ton, and 15 Carter flats and box cars. They also had some 15 ton SP Sacramento shops flats (with tapered sills and body hung brakes) so all are possible.

Hartford measured the cars at Ardenwood, one of which has 4' wheel base trucks with 24" wheels... It was a Hollman built car for Diamond and Caldor, built as a 15 ton long car (34'?) but later cut down to 24'. It is very close to the first flat cars the Carter Brothers built for WSLCo. Those are likely the trucks you have.

I have been working on a table of sill sizes... its about half done... I may post a draft copy in a day or two. My sill size information is spread far and wide...

Randy
Randy Hees

Director, Nevada State Railroad Museum, Boulder City
Railway Preservation News http://www.rypn.org
Chasing old trains where ever I may find them...
http://randyhees.blogspot.com/

Solomani
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:30 pm

Re: SPC Carter Brothers 28' Flat Cars

Post by Solomani » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:06 pm

Hi all,

Any updates from Randy or Andre? Andre, if you have started I would love to see your progress.

- John

Randy Hees
Posts: 464
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:07 pm

Re: SPC Carter Brothers 28' Flat Cars

Post by Randy Hees » Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:54 pm

I am still working on it... it got to be a bit complicated... I found that published information did not match the cars well. Including original sills on our two Carter boxcars SPC 444, and 472, compared to the "original" carter drawings. They don't exactly match each other... nor do they match the drawing...

The table below is a bit of a mess, but may give you an idea of where I am going. Eventually (maybe soon) I will fill in the blanks, then publish a table of typical sill sizes for each capacity of box and flats...

Comparison of Freight Car Dimensions


Carter actual
Flat Box 444 472
NS 1725 Drawing Hammond
8 ton 10 ton 15 ton 8 ton 10 ton 15 ton 10 ton 10 ton
Trucks
Wheel base 3'8" 3'8" 4' 3'8" 3'8" 4' n/a n/a
Wheel Dia. 24" 24" 26" 24" 24" 26" n/a n/a
Spring Rubber steel coil steel coil Rubber steel coil steel coil n/a n/a
Swg. Motion no yes yes no yes yes n/a n/a
Bearing 2 5/8 x 5 3/4 3.5x6.5 n/a n/a


Car Frame
Car length 24' 28' 28' 24' 28' 28' 28' 28'
Car Width 7' 7'2" 7'8" 7'8" 7'8" 7'8"
Side Sill 4.5x11 4x8.5 4.25x7.25 6.75x5 6.75x4.75
Intermediate Sill n/a 4.5x7 n/a 4.25x7.25 7x4 6.75x4
Center Sill 4.75x7 4x8.8 4.25x7.25 7x5 6.75x5
End Beam 5.5x7 5x8.5 5.5x7.25 7.5x5.25 7.5x5.25+
Needle Beam 4.5x8 3.75x8 n/a 7.75x3.75
Body Bolster 4x12 4x11.75 7.75x11.5 7.5x11.25+
Queen posts pad pad pad pad pad 6" n/a pad
No. of truss rods 4 4 4 2 2 4 ? 2 2
Randy Hees

Director, Nevada State Railroad Museum, Boulder City
Railway Preservation News http://www.rypn.org
Chasing old trains where ever I may find them...
http://randyhees.blogspot.com/

amdaylight
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 1:39 pm

Re: SPC Carter Brothers 28' Flat Cars

Post by amdaylight » Sat Aug 14, 2010 1:42 am

Greeting

Well, not much has happened on the car. After hemming and hawing over weather to use stock sized wood or re-cut to match the drawing and listed dimensions and listening to the gentlemen here and on myLargescale.com I have decided that Bob Hartford did have it right and that I was going to have to re-saw most of the timber for the cars. So I have been getting my supplies together. I had to buy a new Proxon ($320.00) table saw that would allow me to trim the wood to the proper dimensions. So with it here I can start to re-cut all of the timber for the three cars that I want to build.

So now it is cutting model 6x12's into 4.5x8.5 and so forth for all three cars that I am going to do. I ordered the first batch of wood this week so once it arrives we start cutting and trimming. The first thing I plan to do is build a jig to assemble the frames on since I have decided that I want 3 or 4 flats plus 1or 2 ventilated box cars to go behind my locomotive.

I will also be ordering on of the Bronson Tate SPC cabooses to bring up the rear. It is funny how these projects stat to take on a life of their own. :roll: :lol:

Andre

Solomani
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:30 pm

Re: SPC Carter Brothers 28' Flat Cars

Post by Solomani » Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:38 am

Andre,

I think you will enjoy the proxxon saw. I highly recommend the micrometer fence available from micromark called the "Accuriser II" for cutting small pieces. Also a zero clearance insert is a must.

John

amdaylight
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 1:39 pm

Re: SPC Carter Brothers 28' Flat Cars

Post by amdaylight » Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:39 pm

John,

I have both of those on order plus the sliding table which will help with cutting dados and such.

Andre

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