Barney & Smith 40'6" coaches

dsp&p_fan
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Barney & Smith 40'6" coaches

Post by dsp&p_fan » Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:13 am

My interested in the Carson & Colorado largely came as an outgrowth of tracking down information on the South Park's Barney & Smith cars. In 1878, the South Park received two 40'6" long and 8' wide coaches from B&S. A few short years later, the Carson & Colorado received its order of 40'6"x8' B&S coaches & head end varnish. There were a few small differences between them, the South Park's had end windows, arched doors, and some minor side detail differences. But, while the South Park modernized theirs and eliminated the distinctive roof profile, the surviving Carson & Colorado's cars remain intact to this day. As of 2000, as I recall, there were at least four of these cars left (1 South Park which is now gone, and 3 C&C).

I chose these distinctive cars to be my first South Park coaches primarily due to having lived my entire life 1hr north or south of Barney & Smith's location. Through studying photo's of Ward Kimball's C&C coach as well as the funeral shots of South Park coach #3, I've managed to construct the sides and ends. Unfortunately, I haven't found a great source of info on the distinct roof profile. If there wasn't a survivor, I'd just approximate it...but we are blessed with survivors.

Here are some photos of the model:
Image

The bottom is the car, the top is a baggage car:
Image

Once I have accurate information on the roof ends, I'll build a roof similar to this:
Image

I'll produce a mold based on the master and create a number of those in resin. I'll also create side and end masters for C&C cars, and add those to my fleet.

Michael

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Andrew Brandon
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Re: Barney & Smith 40'6" coaches

Post by Andrew Brandon » Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:54 am

Michael,

I assume you need a drawing of the roof profile? Or do you need photographs or both?
Herman Darr does a drawing of SP 17 which was formerly SP coach 7, a B&S coach.
You can contact him by phone or call Coronado, they keep his plans in stock.

As far as photographs, I have a handful of photos not of the cars on the SP but of the two that wound up on the NCNG and finished out their years here. One of those is available on the site: http://www.pacificng.com/imglib/main.php?g2_itemId=532, I will look around to see what else I can find of use.

Brian Norden swings through here from time to time, you might try seeing if he has any photos of the coach down at OERM.
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Brian Norden
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Re: Barney & Smith 40'6" coaches

Post by Brian Norden » Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:22 pm

Hi,

I can probably get you some digital photos of the ends of C&C/SP #5. As I recall the there is a complex curve to the lower portions of the roof. I'll try to remember to get some photos next weekend while I'm out at Perris for a couple of meetings.

By the way, SP 17 started out as coach #1, then became combine #7 in 1931 (about the same time coach #9 became combine #8) and then it became caboose #17 in 1940. The car burned on July 4th of 1943.

At the same time the SP had on the narrow gauge a coach numbered "1", a caboose and a locomotive also numbered "1" and there was the SPMW #1 a narrow gauge derrick. And if we go back far enough the C&C had a flat car #1, loco #1 and coach #1.

Then there was the time Dale Darney and I had the SP narrow gauge email group going around in circles while we discussed the C&C combine #7 and SP combine #7 which were two totally different cars.

Brian Norden
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Re: Barney & Smith 40'6" coaches

Post by dsp&p_fan » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:16 am

Thank you for the tips. I'll have to get a hold of Herman Darr or Coronado. Good to read that there is a quality drawing out there. Any photos would be much appreciated.

Numbering sure is fun. I particularly enjoy the Oahu Railway's madness in that regard...seemingly no rhyme or reason, with some numbers being used twice and others never used. I was baffled for quite some time on a South Park passenger car photo...until I realized that the caption had the date wrong...so I was looking at the passenger end of a combine instead of a coach which wore the same number a couple years later!

Michael

Randy Hees
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Re: Barney & Smith 40'6" coaches

Post by Randy Hees » Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:29 am

There were Barney & Smith Coaches on both the NPC and Santa Cruz Railroad as well...

NPC got three coaches in August 1876, numbered 15, 16, & 17... plus a BME
They received two more in 1877. It is likely they got one or two more in 1880
The coaches had 34' 6" bodies (40' 5" over platforms)

The Santa Cruz RR had two, built in 1876 named Theresa and Stella. These are described as 13 window first class cars.

Your modeling is superb. When you describe your models are you measuring over the body or over the platforms?
Randy Hees

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Chasing old trains where ever I may find them...
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Re: Barney & Smith 40'6" coaches

Post by dsp&p_fan » Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:50 am

Randy, thank you for providing additional information in both of these threads. The 40'6" is the body length.

Interesting that those earlier cars had a very similar length over their platforms to the later cars. I'll forward your comments about them on to Scott Trostel. He's attempting to reconstruct B&S's construction roster. As of the publication of his B&S book in 1993, he wasn't aware of the Santa Cruz cars.

A few years back, I was searching for information on Swing Beam trucks, and I found an article on some trucks you guys built at SPCRR. http://www.spcrr.org/NARFGrantWheels.html Wow. My attempt to duplicate it in On3 (for the South Park's swing beam trucks) ended with sub-par results...I'll probably try again in the future. Thank you for your compliment.

Michael

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Re: Barney & Smith 40'6" coaches

Post by John Coker » Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:33 pm

I am guessing that the SPng RPO sold to the NCNG in 1934 was the same length (40'6") as SPng coaches 7,8, and combine 17. Good guess? BTW, excellent, excellent modelmaking. I like to think I am good, but not THAT good!

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Re: Barney & Smith 40'6" coaches

Post by Brian Norden » Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:06 pm

John,

Yes, NCNG had two of the B&S cars in the 1930s

The C&C Barney & Smith cars were coaches 1, 2, and 5 and combines 3, 4 and 6. Combines were rebuilt to baggage-express cars 1899-1900; at that time coaches got internal wall and second toilet to provide smoking section.

Coach 1 was rebuilt into combine 7 in 1931; then became caboose #17 in 1940; burned July 4th 1944.

Coach 2 sold 1934 to NCNG

Baggage 3 sold to Parker Lyon (Pony Express Museum) in 1939; then to Harrah; then to NSRM.

Baggage 4 retired 1939 and body set-up as part of locomotive facilities at Keeler. Body later moved to other location in Keeler.

Coach 5 sold 1938 to Ward Kimball; then in 1990 gifted to Orange Empire Ry Museum.

Baggage 6 sold 1934 to NCNG.

C&C #7 was a Carson City built combine retired in 1915.

SP #8 was a short combine (ex- SP 1009) that is now at Laws. This car became SP MW 1-B in 1924 (boarding car for wreck outfit); then caboose #16 in 1940; then finally caboose #401.

And to further confuse matters, SP coach #9 became combine #8 in 1931; sold to Parker Lyon in 1939; to Harrah; to NSRM. This was a Harlan & Hollingsworth car built for the SPC -- two sister cars ended up on the White Pass (one via NWP and the other via N-C-O).
Brian Norden

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Re: Barney & Smith 40'6" coaches

Post by Andrew Brandon » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:57 am

Michael,

You asked about this on the SPNG group, here is an image to help answer your question.

The trucks in question are V&T shop built, constructed in the Carson City shops during 1896. They were previously under SP #467 which burned many years ago. The remains were purchased by the Babcock Family and the trucks were used on #2. Originally the trucks were built for Yerington's Car #10 (later "Esmeralda"), I am not sure the exact date but at some point they we put under #467.
Attachments
IMG_2219.JPG
C&C 2's V&T Shop Built Trucks.
Photo from Randy Babcock.
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dsp&p_fan
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Re: Barney & Smith 40'6" coaches

Post by dsp&p_fan » Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:52 pm

Interesting photo. From what I can tell, we are looking at the the opposite side of the truck at the opposite end of the car. The details are slightly different.

The photo on the yahoo group clearly shows "heart shaped"...washers (?)... where the transoms are attached. That is a distinct Barney & Smith detail, yet the photo you shared here does not have that and clearly shows the writing on the pedestal...V&T. In fact, those pedestals look like they merely copied the Barney & Smith hardware (there is a photo of an identical pedestal on pg 225 of BoCNG).

The V&T didn't build any SG passenger cars until the 20th century, right? And B&S was the supplier for the C&C cars, so perhaps the trucks are what they appear to be...faux B&S trucks or B&S trucks which were rebuilt with duplicate, replacement hardware. With B&S DNA, regardless as to the actual builder, they provide valuable insight into what the B&S cars came equipped with when new. With all of B&S's pin striping, they would have been gorgeous trucks.

Does anyone know of a surviving builders photo of any of the C&C cars?

Michael

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