NPC Mason history

Discussion of specific prototype locomotives and other equipment of all gauges.
dsp&p_fan
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Re: NPC Mason history

Post by dsp&p_fan » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:15 am

The Buena Vista was, to the best of my knowledge, built to use 150psi. They were deluxe locomotives (especially the valve gear), so it doesn't seem too unreasonable to me.

I was under the impression that the primary benefit of the design was having a wide firebox. While other NG locomotives of the era had to choose between very shallow or very narrow fireboxes, Mason Bogies were free to build deep and wide fireboxes.

I thought the Tomales was built as much on speculation as anything else.

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Re: NPC Mason history

Post by James » Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:59 am

My guess on firebox dimensions was just that--a guess. I've utterly no dimensional information on Mason single fairlie locomotives at my disposal. If anyone has fully detailed dimensional info, I'd love seeing it*. The more the better, down to the sizes of the journals.

If that engine used a particularly wide firebox, say 4 feet, that'd give about 37.5 for length (given a 12.5 grate). My initial estimate was based on photos which seem to indicate a firebox that's rather longer than the drivers are wide, as well as an assumption that Mason's obsession with asthetics would have made him not want a firebox (plus water space) a full foot wider than the boiler--but it could be done. Perhaps it was somewhere in between those two estimates; I have no real way of being sure with mere conjecture. Depth should still be something over 50 inches to make the necessary heating surface listed regardless of the length/width.

150PSI is unusual for an iron boiler around 1880, but fits with the 'high tech locomotive'. I imagine it could easily have been steel, too, as steel had been occasionally used well before then. Either way, that's enough to make me wonder about the boiler pressure of some of the earlier machines (such as the NPC engines, or the various other 0-4-4 clones), whether they were higher than has been listed elsewhere, too.

*My main area of interest for 1870's/80's narrow gauge is with the technology itself, rather than specific railroads, so I eat up information pertaining to dimensions, weights, etc of locomotives, freight and passenger cars, and other rolling stock and such, as well as the engineering characteristics of the various roads (curves, grades, and so forth).

I think I'll stop for now...I could go on and on (it is a hobby, after all), but don't want to...ramble.

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Re: NPC Mason history

Post by CraigH » Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:20 am

I dug out Bully Boy's Order Sheet that was given to me years ago by Kevin Hassing. I have no idea where he got it (for proper sourcing).

It's in the Image Galley under NPC Locomotives.
http://www.pacificng.com/imglib/main.ph ... emId=16252

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Re: NPC Mason history

Post by CraigH » Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:36 am

Andrew's added an image collection called "Mason Drawings for TD&B 0-6-6, Similar To "Bully Boy"".

http://www.pacificng.com/imglib/main.ph ... emId=16213

The loco was built after Bully Boy but apparently essentially the same design.

Scanned from Jerry Kitts' photographs of the drawings.

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Re: NPC Mason history

Post by James » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:11 pm

That's good stuff there. It appears my hunch about firebox width was right and Mason kept it to something close to the boiler diameter (Bully Boy's type used wagon top boilers IIRC? I don't know quite what to call the slight flare it had...'less it's straight and I'm seeing some optical illusion). 5/16 boiler shell out of iron suggests a ~130 pound boiler or thereabout for this relatively early machine; it's a little thicker than some builders, thinner than others...although pushing that to 150 would give the loco a more sensible tractive power for its presumed weight.

I appreciate the drawings, too. That's what makes this site such a great depository of information.

I performed a netsearch via google for +"fontaine stack" since I had no prior knowledge of the technical working of that particular stack and came up with an 1887-dated engineering journal credited to an M. N. Forney; here's a link:

http://books.google.com/books?id=KvY6AA ... 22&f=false

It also shows the inner workings of several other familiar-looking stacks. While I suppose a lot of the folks here will have seen such links before, I figured I'd throw it out there nonetheless.

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Re: NPC Mason history

Post by CraigH » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:53 pm

Took a look at the Fontaine Stack as well. (Thanks James!)

Interesting that it was intended for coal usage (not wood as used by the NPC) as illustrated in the link provided:
http://books.google.com/books?id=KvY6AA ... 22&f=false

Specifications change mid order, we've seen that on Baldwin sheets. Bully Boy's and presumably #2 San Rafael's stacks, as delivered, were more akin to that in Fig. 124. With Bully Boy we do have three images that are early and sport the "as delivered" stack.
http://www.pacificng.com/imglib/main.ph ... emId=15693

I've not seen an early one for San Rafael (Jackrabbit).

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Re: NPC Mason history

Post by Curtis_F » Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:43 am

My apologies for taking so long to get this together, but here are some scans from the book: "Recent Locomotives of 1886".

They have the technical specifications and some history on the early Mason's along with some nice technical drawings.

I have a higher quality version of these scans available and if you drop me a PM through this forum I will provide a link to that 21MB PDF file.


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Re: NPC Mason history

Post by CraigH » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:33 am

I'd like to thank Kyle Wyatt for the following additions to the Galley.

Mason Order Sheets for NPC #2 "San Rafael" AKA "Jackrabbit":
http://www.pacificng.com/imglib/main.ph ... emId=16275

Mason Order Sheet for NPC #3 "Tomales". Cancelled by the NPC.
http://www.pacificng.com/imglib/main.ph ... emId=16279

Note:
The R&LHS Bulletin #1 and #2, 1921, as reprinted, contains the following information on pg 63 from Herbert Fisher:
Mason c/n 563 -
North Pacific Coast Co., Tomales, Bogie. This engine was too heavy for bridges on Boston & Albany R. R., was returned after reaching South Framingham, sold to the Central R. R. of Minnesota and named Mankato, was not delivered and sent to the Galveston, Harrisburg & San Antonio July 22, 1876 and named Dixie Crosby (sic - Dixi Crosby). shop number (c/n) 563. (Kyle Wyatt)

In passing I note from the same source:
Mason c/n 547, built for Utica, Ithica & Elmira, Feb 6, 1875, Leviathan, 17x24, 3 ft 6 in drivers, Bogie. The road had a rack rail and a pinion was on the front drive shaft. This engine was returned to the shop, rebuilt and sent to Galveston, Harrisburg & San Antonio as the Commodore Garrison, shop no. (c/n) 570 (note changed c/n). Dec 26, 1876. (Wallace's Mason book indicates that c/n 547 and c/n 570 were two separate locos, both sold to the GH&SA.)


Mason Order Sheet for NPC #8 "Bully Boy" (a better copy!):
http://www.pacificng.com/imglib/main.ph ... emId=16287

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Re: NPC Mason history

Post by James » Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:14 pm

Now that's what I like seeing, information that I presume represents as-built configuration. Of particular note is the 14x16, 42 inch boiler 2-6-6T, since it's a loco of the same class discussed earlier, though a different specific locomotive (#15 Breckenridge is illustrated). Pertinent specifications listed on the PDF follow:

Weight on driving truck 48,0000.
Boiler Shell 3/8 (material not specified, but I assume wrought iron)
113 tubes, 2 inch diameter x 9 feet 10 inches long.
Firebox: L48 x W31.5 x D50, 3 to 3.5 inch water space.

Observations: The weight is different than listed earlier, and makes me wonder if perhaps the earlier listed weight (attributed to a Wagner) was for a dry engine. It may indicate a design change between locomotives. Occam's Razor would suggest that one (or both) of the figures may be a simple estimate. Steam engine weights aren't an exact science to begin with, but a ton and a half is a rather large difference, particularly since engines that had been in service for some years more typically gained weight due to added equipment rather than losing it.

The latest PDF specifies wheelbase of the 'driving truck' as 6 feet 7 (which is surely that only of the driving wheels themselves), but proceeds to list weight on the 'same' as 48000. This contributes to my belief that there exists in some publications insufficient distinction between weight on drivers vs weight on the lead bogie as a whole. I believe that the listed weight--if even accurate and not an estimate--includes weight on the pony truck.

Boiler thickness has increased from the 5/16 on Bully Boy's order sheet to 6/16 (3/8). That's in line with practice of the time and may or may not correlate to an increase in boiler pressure.

The firebox width is listed as 31.5 inches wide. Bully Boy's order sheet lists what looks like (to me) 37.625....but maybe it's a 1 and not a 7. Or perhaps the PDF article had a typo. Either way, those two figures make me go, hmmmmm. Notably, the 0-4-4 line drawing indicates a firebox distinctly narrower than the track gauge, and approximately the same width as the inside edges of the locomotive wheels. The firebox length and width specified in the latest PDF are too small to allow for a 12.5 grate area (it'd be more like 10.5) so something doesn't add up one way or another, again barring a design change between various heavy 2-6-6T's.

What is the overall width of these things? Publications of all sorts tend to be maddingly terrible for listing maximum outside width, despite the importance of that measure in terms of relation to line loading gauge. One of the line drawings, for an 0-4-4, makes it look like something in the vicinity of 7 feet for that class.

Another hobby of mine is ww2 avaiation, and sure enough in that hobby as this one, two different sources will give different specs for the same piece of equipment (sometimes errors which are clearly wrong due to being physically impossible, sometimes more subtle and harder to identify). This is precisely why I like having multiple sources of information, particularly primary sources (builder's info) and such when applicable.

--------------------------

EDIT: I typed up this post during the time the post immediately above was posted, having gone AFK to eat dinner and leaving the reply page open for a considerable while, and as such did not yet have access to the specs contained within the later post.

More EDIT: San Rafael's boiler shell also specifies 3/8. Interesting. The firebox width sure looks like a "7" to me. (Upon closer examination) The guy who wrote on the order pages does NOT put a 'lip' on his 1's, so they must be 7's. It still begs the question of why the heavy 2-6-6T is listed with a 31 inch wide firebox (typo?) and why the line drawing seems to list something narrower for the 0-4-4 (I'm bad at reading line drawings?).

I maintain that there's no way the NPC could have run that big 0-6-6 without messing up its line. Even at 130 pounds pressure it would have had near 14,000lbs TE, indicating a weight on drivers of more than 48000 pounds and likely a lot more (quite possibly 54 to 56 thousand or more). I doubt Mason would have willingly built a 'slippery' locomotive. Couple that sort of weight on 35 pound iron rail with a rough riding design and the NPC probably counted its blessings that the thing couldn't be delivered. The smaller Mason bogies the line did own were reportedly hard enough on the track as it was.

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Re: NPC Mason history

Post by Andrew Brandon » Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:38 pm

James,

The firebox width for San Rafael says "37 5/8", the 7 is faded strangely and looks like a 1.
I can not make out the length of the firebox, it is obviously not ".18". Could it be "48"?
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