OR&L Builders drawings

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Loco112
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OR&L Builders drawings

Post by Loco112 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:36 am

but we did pull the drawings of the OR&L ALCO 2-8-2's
I waited as long as I could for someone to politelty speak up and state the obvious, but its obvious at this point that it is never going to happen, so here goes.

I'd like to talk about the Dillingham drawing archive, the source of the ALCO original builders drawings that he HRS now has for the OR&L #60,70,80 & 90 (K-28's with the air pump/pumps in the traditional location).

My reason for asking is to hopefully determine what other locomotive drawing sets the Dillinghams were able to preserve, and thus what sets still survive, to determine what OR&L locomotives could be accuracy replicated using their original builders drawings for the project. How complete is the ALCO OR&L Mikado set (No BS please)?

The Sumpter Valley ALCO blueprints went up in the flames in the 1969 Skagway roundhouse fire, so they are gone forever. ALCO was nothing if not recyclers of their own designs and parts with their 3' gauge offerings, so I'm wondering how many parts and critical dimensions the OR&L Mikes share with the SV locos, and how useful the OR&L drawings would be in replicating the SV #19 & 20?

Hope I didn't give anyone a stroke by saying out loud that those drawings exist.
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Jeff Livingston
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Re: OR&L Builders drawings

Post by Jeff Livingston » Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:10 am

Not sure where the quote came from but, yes, the Bishop Museum holds a number of sets of locomotive plans within the Dillingham Collection. Among them are the 2-8-2's (OR&L Nos. 60, 70, 80 and 90), 4-6-0 (OR&L Nos. 85 and 87) and 0-6-0 (OR&L No. 12) plus others. The drawings are un-cataloged and run to the hundreds. Some of the 2-8-2 drawings have been copied in the past by various folks but never all of them. The Hawaiian Railway Society (HRS) research team has looked for and copied specific drawings such as the boiler and drawbar for No. 85 and the crossheads for No. 12 to aid in our restoration efforts. Most of the drawings are in fair condition but there are some rather frgile ones too. Copying the drawings is extremely expensive as they are, for the most part, quite large and must be sent out to HonBlue for processing. $100.00 per sheet is not uncommon. Due to the loss of $2M in federal funding the Bishop Museum has closed the library and archives to visitors except by appointment and reduced its staff significantly. The HRS team still has access but only twice a month on Saturday from 0900 to 1200. Even with 3 to 5 guys working our efforts have really slowed down. But, we are greatful to have whatever time is available. I'll try and screw together a list of what types of locomotives are in the collection other than those I'va already mentioned. We have no idea if these drawing sets are complete or not.

Jeff Livingston

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Loco112
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Re: OR&L Builders drawings

Post by Loco112 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:04 pm

Thank Jeff, thats what I wanted to hear, the truth and a few details!

No need to hurry, I can wait. I'm just gald to hear that you have them and that you are working on them. I'll take bits of info as it becomes available, no special effort required for my inquiries please.

Obviously there has been a regime change at HRS! I had asked one of the prior HRS Presedents about this quite a few years ago, and was told that "no we don't have anything like that". I'm relieved to know that was a "mistake". All is now forgiven of the HRS, but when I run into that past pres., he's going to regeret his missinformation!

What HRS need is the donation of a huge bed scanner (for the fragile dwgs), and a very good roll scanner (for the not fragile dwgs), and I know just the man to talk to about getting you one.

I'll work on that and keep you in mind.
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Jeff Livingston
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Re: OR&L Builders drawings

Post by Jeff Livingston » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:17 pm

HRS is growing and changing for the better. However, we don't have these drawings, they belong to Bishop Museum. Nobody, including Bishop had a good inventory of the Dillingham Collection, just a general one such as General Manager's Orders - 5 boxes, General Letters 1889-1972 - 80 Boxes, Superintendents Memos 1922 - 1947 etc. After election as HRS Historian I put together a three man research team of myself, Bob Paoa, HRS Historian Emeritus and Stan Kumura. We have been reading and documenting the Dillingham Collection every Saturday for the last five years until being forced to shift to every other Saturday. We also have up to three other team members who can occasionally assist. We've probably racked up over 2,000 hours in the archives so far. We hope to be adding a new team member soon is is expert on the Hawaii Consolidated Railroad and it's predessor the Hilo Railroad which were also Dillingham ventures. The collection is huge and contains a lot of stuff not related to the railroads but we have to plow through that also just to be sure. I do not expect to complete this project in my lifetime but we'll put one heck of a dent in it. If there is something in particular you're looking for let me know. If we've got it you'll get it.

Jeff Livingston

Randy Hees
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Re: OR&L Builders drawings

Post by Randy Hees » Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:25 pm

HRS is doing wonderful research and restoration, and is maturing in spectacular ways.

They have a covered shop... they restore... they know when not to restore... (locomotive 12)

There are restoration reports (car 57) , and discussions of methods.

They have 4 diesel electrics, all run... the last undergoing full restoration.(who else has all their diesels running?)

I had a chance a couple of years ago to spend week on the museum site, and a morning with the Bishop Museum research group... they are first class academic researchers.

Like many groups, they continue to look for the way to progress... but they keep finding new and better ways...

I visit a lot of railroad groups, and I am not usually this optimistic...
Randy Hees

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Re: OR&L Builders drawings

Post by Curtis_F » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:35 pm

Jeff Livingston wrote:After election as HRS Historian I put together a three man research team of myself, Bob Paoa, HRS Historian Emeritus and Stan Kumura. We have been reading and documenting the Dillingham Collection every Saturday for the last five years until being forced to shift to every other Saturday...
...I do not expect to complete this project in my lifetime but we'll put one heck of a dent in it. If there is something in particular you're looking for let me know. If we've got it you'll get it.
Been away from this forum too long...

Jeff,

First off I just read this topic and wanted to thank you for you and your teams work on going though the Bishop Museum's collections trying to catalog those documents and drawings. I can only imagine how daunting of a task that is. Thank you for this preservation effort and for sharing what information you have dug up. It's amazing that so much has apparently survived.

Are there any efforts towards digitizing the collection? It's makes me nervous to think all of this is in one spot...on an island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean...a volcanic island...


In your research efforts have you come across the Erecting Card for #85? You mention the Boiler and Draw Bar, do you have a running list of what you've found thus far for this locomotive?

Out of morbid curiosity have you seen any drawings for the #111(Ex-NCO 4-6-0 #11) ? It was a 2nd hand and late acquisition so I'm not really expecting there to be anything, but I have to ask to know for sure. :-)


Thank you for your time, and take care,

Curtis F.
Curtis S. Ferrington
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Jeff Livingston
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Re: OR&L Builders drawings

Post by Jeff Livingston » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:33 am

Curtis,

First off, sorry, no drawings of No. 111. Not well received by the OR&L crews and pulled the garbage train until the train got to big for it and she was replaced by a 2-8-2. Seldom used after that.

We're trying to put together a listing of the available drawings but there is a huge amount of stuff to go through. We also have to figure out which drawings go where. Our intention is to apply for a grant to start digitizing the collection and make it available. Bishop Museum has agreed to allow us to do it. Looks like No. 85 is very complete as is 0-6-0 No. 12 the Mikes and some others.

Jeff Livingston

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Re: OR&L Builders drawings

Post by Curtis_F » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:33 pm

Jeff Livingston wrote:First off, sorry, no drawings of No. 111.
And now I know for certian. Thank you!
We're trying to put together a listing of the available drawings but there is a huge amount of stuff to go through. We also have to figure out which drawings go where.
There are some aspects of historical research I'm useless for. However, blueprints are my favorite area of study. I'm very familiar with Baldwin standard practices and reading their blueprints. I would like to talk with you more to see if there's any way I can help with this effort of sorting what's-what and cataloging.

*I sent you an email through this forum*
Our intention is to apply for a grant to start digitizing the collection and make it available. Bishop Museum has agreed to allow us to do it.
That is excellent news by several standards.
Looks like No. 85 is very complete as is 0-6-0 No. 12 the Mikes and some others.
It was not-uncommon for Baldwin to sell drawing sets with their locomotives, particularly to railroads overseas. What's uncommon is that these have survived apparently very well intact. Usually when the railroads went out of business, or converted to diesels, there was a bon fire to get rid of those big cumbersome sheets of paper. :cry:

Usually when railroads would buy prints for their locomotives they would also purchase drawings from the appliance vendors as well (Westinghouse Air Brake Co., Wm. Sellers & Co., Nathan Manufacturing Co., etc.). Is this also the case with OR&L?


Thank you for the reply,

Curtis F.
Curtis S. Ferrington
Train Nut

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