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NCNG #8 whaleback tender

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NCNG #8 whaleback tender

Postby NCNG#7 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:57 am

Hi all,
in search for information about the whaleback tender that ended its live behind #8 (in my case, it is planed to run behind a scratchbuilt #7) , I posted this request already at the NCNG and SPng yahoo-group, but with little feedback.
So far I did not give up hope, and maybe here are the experts around.
After studying the rare drawings and dozens of pics, I can not find an answer on the following questions:
Though it came from the SPng and is a whaleback tender, its frame looks entirely different than the ones still existing. What kind of design had the frame?
Judging by the dimensions it can not be a wooden frame.Was the frame built up from maybe U-shaped steel beams fastened with rivets?
Can not make sense out of the patern of the rivets/bolts. Were there any cross braces?
How were they aranged?
What did the body bolster look like?
Was the tender decking wood or just sheet metal with a metal strip trim around the circumference?

What do you think? Any kind of information about it, is highly appreciated

Florian
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Re: NCNG #8 whaleback tender

Postby Andrew Brandon » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:34 am

Florian,

I've moved recently and I have yet to fully unpack my reference materials. I am sure I've got a photo somewhere that shows this detail.

What references/drawings do you have on hand so far?

Andrew
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Re: NCNG #8 whaleback tender

Postby NCNG#7 » Fri May 24, 2013 11:57 am

Andrew,
I am really sorry for not responding for such a long time, but I started something supposed to be a “snack-project” that evolved to a main course.
Right now I have to wait for some brass castings what allows me getting back to the whaleback tender topic.
To answer your question I listed books, magazines and internet sources I have access to.
-Nevada County Narrow Gauge G. Best
-A Tale of Two Cities and a Train J. Kennedy-Brown
-California High Country Narrow Gauge Railroads G. Turner
-Narrow Gauge Railway Scenes A. Hungry Wolf
-SP200 Drawings by Herman Darr
-Drawing by Al Armitage published in Narrow Gauge Annual
-Pictures published in various issues of Narrow Gauge Annual
-nevadacountynarrowgauge.com
-PacificNG.com
-Denver Public Libr.
-California State Libr.
-USC Libraries

All of these sources show different views of the tender, but none gives a crisp clear view of the details I am looking for.
I have to admit, there will be hardly any pictures showing the tender frame from underneath, but maybe there is some information around about the kind of design matching the pattern of rivets/bolts. (So far I could not even determine, if they used rivets or bolts as fasteners.)
The other day, I spent some time browsing through the whaleback tender folder. After close-up inspection of some pictures, it appears to me, the tender deck is made from sheet metal with a metal trim around the circumference. This would proof my assumption.
What do you think?

Florian
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Re: NCNG #8 whaleback tender

Postby Andrew Brandon » Tue May 28, 2013 5:57 pm

Florian,

I had a chance to talk to Herman Darr today and asked him about the tender frame.
Here is what he relayed to me:

The tender frame is iron, a standard Baldwin frame option. It seems C&C 6-8 were delivered with iron frames. The C&C/V&T apparently retrofit two additional locomotives after the fact, ordering the parts directly from Baldwin. According to the spec sheet, these were Drawing 145 tenders. I checked in my files and I do not seem to have a drawing for this one. You may need to contact the DeGolyer Library and inquire about the drawing there. Herman also mentioned that the frame was L shaped beam rather than U.

I thought I had a photo with a good view of the tender deck but I cannot locate it at the moment. I will continue searching for that.
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Re: NCNG #8 whaleback tender

Postby Curtis Reid » Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:11 pm

I have a photo that sort-of shows the tender deck, if this helps?

http://www.carsoncarshops.com/images/web/Picture_160.jpg
(posted as a link due to the size)

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Re: NCNG #8 whaleback tender

Postby GregMaxwell » Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:04 am

This is the best picture that I have of #8'S tender. I hope it helps.

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Re: NCNG #8 whaleback tender

Postby Brian Norden » Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:09 pm

The trucks under the tender behind #8 are the style that the C&C locomotive tenders came with from Baldwin.

Andrew Brandon wrote:The tender frame is iron, a standard Baldwin frame option. It seems C&C 6-8 were delivered with iron frames. The C&C/V&T apparently retrofit two additional locomotives after the fact, ordering the parts directly from Baldwin.
I seem to recall that there is correspondence or invoice among the C&C material at University of Nevada, Reno Special Collections about obtaining a iron tender frame from Baldwin. I think it was for locomotive #1 and it was to replaced either a wrecked or fire damaged frame. I looked at my notes and I do not immediately find any specific notes about this.
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Re: NCNG #8 whaleback tender

Postby Brian Norden » Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:38 pm

NCNG#7 wrote:Though it came from the SPng and is a whaleback tender, its frame looks entirely different than the ones still existing.


The existing locomotives SP numbers 8, 9, and 18 are ex-Nevada-California-Oregon locomotives which were built by BLW with the "whaleback" or "semi-cylindrical" tenders. The #8 tender came from the C&C 4-4-0 that the NCNG bought from the SP -- this tank style is different and was made by the railroad and applied to the older frame.

There is a chapter about the "semi-cylindrical" in Bob Bader's book about the cars and locomotives.
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Re: NCNG #8 whaleback tender

Postby NCNG#7 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:50 pm

Brian, Greg, Curtis and Andrew
I am really upset about myself, being too stupid to navigate on this forum. Just discovered that you replied to my post almost a year ago.
Nevertheless, thank you very much for spending your time collecting information and pictures. They bring up some interesting points not known to me yet.
Meanwhile I found a picture that reveals the design of the tender decking. Hopefully the resolution of the attached picture is sufficient for zooming in to see that there is a sheet metal plate with a (metal) trim around. Further is a thicker layer between the frame and the metal plate which I assume it is a wood decking. Also on the picture (very nice high resolution shot) in Greg's post, there is the wood decking and the end of the trim (that goes only along the sides) nicely visible.

Concerning the unknown design of the frame, I will try to get contact to DeGolyer Library and see what they have. Will also try to get a look into Bob Bader's Book ( What is the actual title of it? ) .
There is also some information in a thread by Curtis F. in the prototype locomotive discussion section of this forum. Referring to a BLW spec. sheet the tender frame was made of 10" channels. While this is rather opposite to Herman Darr's statement, it gives an idea about the dimensions.
I am afraid in this matter it will take quite some more research to solve the mistery of the tender frame.

I will keep you posted

Florian
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Re: NCNG #8 whaleback tender

Postby Andrew Brandon » Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:09 pm

Florian,

No apology is necessary, the trouble wasn't your fault. For about a year the forum was not configured correctly to send email notices when someone had responded to a post. This has now been resolved and hopefully, you are receiving notifications again.

I discovered that I forgot to upload the spec sheets for the C&C locomotives, they are now back in the Image Gallery.

According to the spec sheet, what you need from DeGolyer should be Tender Drawing #145.
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