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Design differences between SPNG locomotives Nos. 8, 9 and 18

Discussion of specific prototype locomotives and other equipment of all gauges.

Design differences between SPNG locomotives Nos. 8, 9 and 18

Postby PacificCoastBorax99 » Sat May 28, 2016 12:54 pm

I have been looking at the designs of the SPNG (ex-NCO) steamers, Nos. 8, 9 and 18, for a sprite scale model I was hoping to make off the three engines, and I was curious to know some things about these engines. Nos. 8, 9 and 18 have very similar design features, that I've noticed. Nos. 8 and 9 look virtually similar to me, like twins. The only real differences I've seen between No. 18 and the other pair, is of course the Walscharts valve gear on No. 18, funnel height, arrangement of the Westinghouse pump and the tank underneat the cab and a few other things.

I'm curious to know if there's any other differences between the three engines regarding size, dimensions, parts or anything else. I currently have scale drawings of No. 8, from Model Railroader Magazine, and am currently on the lookout for plans for No. 18 or No. 9, if any are available that you guys may know of.

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Re: Design differences between SPNG locomotives Nos. 8, 9 an

Postby Loco112 » Sun May 29, 2016 1:28 pm

The #18 also has the widened steam chests, to widen the centerline of the slide valves to a wider dimension. That's so, the monkey motion gear will line up better. Baldwin standardized that width for locomotives of the various gauges, so knowing that one dimension will help position much of the associated parts.

I last spoke to the guys doing the rebuild of the #18 about a year ago, and they had nothing that you don't have except the Sales Order Specifications sheets from Baldwin, which has all the written specs from the original purchase order of the locomotive. These locos were ordered by the N.C.O RY. Look up the Degolyer library Baldwin Sales Order Specification Sheets for those three locos. Those are free and on the SMU website. The Degolyer had an erecting drawing showing the #8 & #9 and cross sections, but it sounds like the same info you have, as that has been reprinted a few times. You can order a larger version of that erecting drawing, scan it, scale it, and us it for your project in a cad program.

If I were working on your project, I'd contact that #18 rebuild crew, just to make sure they haven't found more original blueprints on the locomotive by now.

Some of the designs of the valve gear look identical to the parts and pieces used on the SR&RL #23, and the drawings for that loco were reprinted in a booklet called the: Two Foot Cyclopedia volume #2, SR&RL #23. You could upscale a few of those parts and they would appear perfect, even though they would not be exactly perfect.

Whatever you locate, please post a note about it here. It seems like the tenders for those oil burners were topiced here before, so check the older posts for other info.

Good luck to you.
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Re: Design differences between SPNG locomotives Nos. 8, 9 an

Postby Andrew Brandon » Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:41 am

Nic,

I am not sure why the spec for 8 and 9 aren't on the site. but I'll get those uploaded later today.
When built for the N-C-O, SP 8 and 9 were essentially identical, both ordered from the plan number. Over their operational lives things slowly changed. The most noticeable change is the smokebox front on #9. This is a replacement applied to the locomotive after the original was damaged in Bakersfield while the locomotive was being overhauled. I don't have the date of this incident handy at the moment.

#18 was part of a series of 3 similar locomotives ordered by the N-C-O and numbered 10, 11 and 12. 10 and 11 went on to the Pacific Coast Ry as their #111 and #112. The #112 later went to the Oahu and was scrapped in 1950. The spec sheets for N-C-O 11 and 12 along with a scan of the builders photograph is available in the Image Gallery.

I believe I have a PDF file with the erecting drawings for these locomotives that is supposed to go on the N-C-O page when it ever gets written. I'll see if I can find them and get them posted somewhere on the site.
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Re: Design differences between SPNG locomotives Nos. 8, 9 an

Postby Brian Norden » Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:49 pm

N-C-O #11 and #12 were both built in December of 1911. These two would be closer to being twins than with any of the other 4-6-0s on the line.

None of the other Baldwin 4-6-0s were built in the same time as another. Between that and several decades of work by the N-C-O and the SP would produce some differences in the appearance of the locomotives. On the N-C-O the locomotives had straight running boards and the main air reservoir(s) above the boiler; the SP changed this. While the 11 & 12 had the air tank(s) between the stack and the sand dome, other N-C-O locomotives had the tank between the domes.
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Re: Design differences between SPNG locomotives Nos. 8, 9 an

Postby PacificCoastBorax99 » Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:09 pm

@Loco112: I see. I shall make a note of this, I have already talked to the head of the society once and he said they barely have anything for blueprints regarding No. 18 unfortunately. I do have the entire Baldwin locomotive specification sheets I have gathered available for public domain. Also I have relooked at the plans I have acquired from Model Railroader Magazine that i mentioned was SPNG #8....turns out they're actually NCO #11, which can also be used for #12 and therefore SPNG #18, from which I've done all three engines in sprite form.

@Andrew Brandon: Alright. I never knew about the smokebox change, that's interesting to know. Please be sure to let me know when you find them, they would be most useful for spriting NCO Nos. 8 and 9 when I get to them.

@Brian Norden: Thanks for informing me of that. I've always wondered what those big tanks were on the boiler...

Anyways, I am happy to say I've finished a sprite of SPNG #18 and a few A-frame gondolas for a sprite scene I made as practice for making custom backgrounds and realistic style smoke. I have also put it up for sale to print on canvas arts, mugs, travel bags, shirts and other things for anyone who's interested in a little SPNG memorabilia. Half of the profit will go to the Carson & Colorado Railway Society to help finish the last leg of the restoration for SPNG #18. ;)

http://www.redbubble.com/people/pacific ... rrow-gauge

Thanks guys for all your input!

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Re: Design differences between SPNG locomotives Nos. 8, 9 an

Postby Andrew Brandon » Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:25 am

The specs for all of the N-C-O baldwin locomotives (except first #4, apparently I forgot to upload it) are now in the gallery.

I discovered I have the list of Baldwin drawings for 8, 9 and 18.
Despite being built at different times, #8 and #9 are built on the same erecting drawing (#6035) and engine frame (#5574), the same goes for the tender (#4247) and tender frame (#3635). #8 uses tender truck drawing #2409 while #9 has #2718. Despite being built at different times, N-C-O #4(8), 9 and 10 are all built from the same erecting drawings. So the differences between them early on were cosmetic only.

#18 was built using erecting drawing #7253 and #7254. The engine frame is drawing #6581. The tender tank is drawing #5235, tender frame is #4417 and the tender truck is #2718, the same as used under #9. These drawing numbers should be available for order from the DeGolyer Library.

I located the PDF scans I have for the site and it appears I do have the erecting drawings for NCO #4(8), #9 and #10 but not #11 or #12. I will try to get these uploaded later tonight to the Baldwin page.
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Re: Design differences between SPNG locomotives Nos. 8, 9 an

Postby Loco112 » Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:42 pm

Andrew, are you saying that you have the "Master List of Drawings" to one of those locomotives? That is the list of card numbers for each part needed to build the locomotive. If so what is the source for that list?

FYI, at Degolyer its next to impossible to find more than a few drawings for any one locomotive, and the old drawings were multiple scaled and without the original list of drawings for a locomotive its nearly impossible to figure out which part goes on which locomotive even if the drawing is right in front of you.

Degolyer is closed till next Spring I was told not too long ago.

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Re: Design differences between SPNG locomotives Nos. 8, 9 an

Postby Andrew Brandon » Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:32 pm

A master list would sure be nice...

Alas, this was just a list someone had compiled listing the relevant drawings for those SPNG locomotives. I am actually not sure who compiled the list and photographed the paper it was on so I transcribed it for that post.
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