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Consolidating the Baldwin 8-18C Data

Discussion of specific prototype locomotives and other equipment of all gauges.

Re: Consolidating the Baldwin 8-18C Data

Postby Loco112 » Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:40 pm

I am wondering how universal are the lettering and paint details that are posted on the HDS page about the 8-18C? Would they be the same as most all the other little Baldwins of that same time period, regardless of the road name (unless the road asked for their own fonts and lettering)?

Here is your HDS link, http://www.pacificng.com/template.php?page=commerce /hds/index.htm
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Re: Consolidating the Baldwin 8-18C Data

Postby Andrew Brandon » Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:39 am

The Baldwin style system allowed for striping and other arabesque elements to function in a universal sense. Combinations of various stripes would create new styles, often for new customers. While Craig is currently unable to get online and respond, I can provide some insight. The lettering typefaces he's provided do match many of the lettering styles we've seen on Baldwin's of the period. Essentially, we scoured our sources for every photo we could find and Craig worked out lettering sets from that. There are certainly variations that would have occurred which he's not covered, but those might have been specifically ordered by a road. We noted there were 2 distinct Baldwin lettering styles applied by the shops during the 1870s, the "NPC" style as seen on "Sonoma", and the type on "Eureka". The style used on Eureka is also seen on Santa Cruz RR "Jupiter" in historic photographs. Craig's work does cover about 99% of the "generic" Baldwin market around 1872-1880 or so. The tender panel for style 1 is shown on Craig's artwork, the second set of striping (plain gold) would represent a much later scheme. Style 1 would be the generic passenger scheme applied by Baldwin during the 1870s. Freight locomotives would have worn Style 2 up until the styles change in the late 1870s to Style 49 and 50 (49 is passenger, 50 freight). Craig has intended to get these schemes built up over time, I know he needed components of 49 for a project of his own.

All of this work of course was done to assist with MMI's project bring out the 8-18C in On3/30 which sadly has stalled. Craig, Randy H, Kyle W, Myself and others put together tremendous resources for this project, which, would have used the HDS decals to go above and beyond what the model came with, providing for accurate lettering for almost any road that would have ordered the classic 8-18C design.
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Re: Consolidating the Baldwin 8-18C Data

Postby Solomani » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:29 pm

I know the info is out there in the aether world of the net but i am having trouble finding it.

What is the coupler pocket centerline height off the rails for the tender coupler?

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Re: Consolidating the Baldwin 8-18C Data

Postby James » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:06 pm

I copied down the specs from the spec sheets provided by degolyer for the 8-18C drawing 10 in the same format as used on the spec table posted elsewhere on this site for various versions of the 12x16 or 18 Baldwin. As with all the Baldwin 4-4-0's, certain dimensions (such as driving wheels) had various options available.

8-18C drawing 10
Gauge 36 inches
locomotive: Fulton County Narrow Gauge #4 (1882)

cylinders: 12x16"
Drivers: 41"
Journals: 5.5x7"
Frame: Inside

Boiler

Style: cb wt
Diameter: 38"

Tubes

Number: 113
Diameter: 1.5"
Length: 8' 9 3/4"

Firebox

Length: 47 15/16"
Width: 24 5/8"
Depth F: 45" B: 44"
Grate Area: 8.2 sq. ft.

Wheel Base

Rigid: 7' 2"
Driving: 7' 2"
total: 18' 3"

Truck

Wheel: 24"
Journal: 3.5x6"
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Re: Consolidating the Baldwin 8-18C Data

Postby Loco112 » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:06 am

Arund the 8-18C's time, the coupler and shank centerlines early standard was 24" in coupler centerline height.

Later the big NG RR conventions voted to modify some of the earlier standards, as the equipment got larger and stronger, and the change to 26" (for 3' gauge) was one of the changes.

That has been the standard ever since.
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Re: Consolidating the Baldwin 8-18C Data

Postby Solomani » Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:19 pm

Loco112,

thanks, that is just the info I needed.

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Re: Consolidating the Baldwin 8-18C Data

Postby Loco112 » Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:43 pm

I remember reading somewhere that the old 1880 4-4-0's had originally been built with frames that resemble a stack of leaf springs as used on our highway and work trucks rear leaf suspensions. The 8-18C SONOMA and EUREKA both seem to have regular "bar" type frames, just like all the other Baldwin NG locomotives that we look at.

So, was the "flexi-flyer" multi-layer frame replaced with the now standard bar frame at some point on these locomotives or were they originally bar frames and I am just confusing myself by thinking of an earlier locomotive and frame design.
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Re: Consolidating the Baldwin 8-18C Data

Postby Loco112 » Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:37 pm

One other "left Field" question for you early Baldwin experts.

I found that Walshaerts gaear only came along to Baldwin in 1905, so none of the 8-18C locos were built with the gear, but were any of the 8-18C locos converted to an outside valve gear during thier lifes?

Outside, as in; Southern, Walschaerts, and later Baker?
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Re: Consolidating the Baldwin 8-18C Data

Postby Randy Hees » Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:03 pm

The narrow gauge 8-18c locos all had conventional bar frames. I believe that the flex beam frame design was long abandoned when Baldwin adopted the class system to describe locos about 1873.

I have never seen anything on one of these being converted to a more modern valve gear. These were small engines, with lower boiler pressures (I don't know of any being superheated) which by 1900 were clearly in secondary uses, and unlikely worth the investment.

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Re: Consolidating the Baldwin 8-18C Data

Postby Thor Windbergs » Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:56 am

Hello friends,

It appears that both the Smithsonian and DeGolyer SMU are posting pictures of drawings that people (including me) have ordered copies of in the last 3 years that were then digitalized. The Smithsonian 36 online from 202 drawings are the beautiful, really old drawings from before 1890, the scans are not brighter than the original yellowed color but you can zoom in to various locations of the drawing and right click to copy resonable quality png files. Some of the drawings have amazing details from inside boiler to appurtenances like cross head water pumps and injectors.

https://sova.si.edu/record/NMAH.AC.0353
http://amhistory.si.edu/archives/AC0353 ... s_list.pdf

Most of the sources for Baldwin drawings for 4-4-0s have been indexed on the fine Pacific NG website discussion
On the Smithsonian site are 3 pages of drawings on the last one 6 from the end is Denver & Rio Grand 4-4-0 class 8-18.5C6 and I can't identify it. My best guess is that it is the last order since the date of the drawing seems to be 1882 and Sn 6631-6633 was built in 1883 as road 107-109. I give up, was a nice rabbit hole to fall into...

Vol9pg249 Denver & Rio Grande ("Mogollon", "Roaring Fork", "Gunnison", "Embuda", 92-96 1879 08-18 1/2 C
Vol10pg16 Denver & Rio Grande ("Eagle River", "Wahsatch", "TenMile") 89-91 1879 08-18 C
Vol9pg249 Denver & Rio Grande ("San Miguel", "Rito Alto", "Ptarmigan") 85-88 1879 08-18 1/2 C
Vol11pg166 Denver & Rio Grande 107-109 1882 08-18 1/2 C
Vol10pg144 Denver & Rio Grande ("Kokomo", "Hesperis", "Col. Boone") 99-101 1880 08-18 1/2 C

Below from my Excel Builders list there were alot of 4-4-0s on the D&RG.

Builders:N Yr /MonthBuilt Wheel:Arra BoreStrokeDriver First:Owne Road:Numbe Remarks Second:Own Rd:Nos:grinning smileya Rmrks:
2106 Blw 1870 3 4-4-0 16 24 56 Denver Pacific 27(1870) 127( ) std.ga., sold 1/80 Union Pacific 127(1880) 365(1890)
2109 Blw 1870 3 4-4-0 16 24 56 Denver Pacific 28(1870) 128( ) std.ga., sold 1/80 Union Pacific 128(1880) 366(1890) 1398( )???
2171 Blw 1870 6 4-4-0 16 24 60.7 Denver Pacific David Moffat(2nd) 26(1870) 126( ) std.ga., sold 1/80 Union Pacific 126(1880) 433(1890)
2172 Blw 1870 6 4-4-0 16 24 60.7 Denver Pacific Thomas Egerton 25 std.ga., sold 1/80 Union Pacific 125(1880) 432(1882) (125 was Kan.Pac.)
2173 Blw 1870 6 4-4-0 16 24 60.7 Denver Pacific Walter Cheesman(2nd) 24 std.ga., sold 1/80 Union Pacific 124(1880) 431(1882) (124 was Kans.Pac.)
2506 Blw 1871 7 4-4-0 16 24 60.7 Denver Pacific John Evans 23(1871) 123( ) std.ga., sold 1/80 Union Pacific 123(1880) 710(1882) 841( ) reb.as 841, sold 8/04 SP 1463
3867 Blw 1876 4 4-4-0 11 16 44 Denver & Rio Grande Pike 16 3'ga., cls.37, ret./87, for sale 10/87, sc.6/88
3869 Blw 1876 4 4-4-0 11 16 44 Denver & Rio Grande Greenhorn 17 3'ga., cls. 37, sold 10/88 R. W. Stewart & Co. 00 (lumber)
3871 Blw 1876 4 4-4-0 11 16 44 Denver & Rio Grande Spanish Peaks 18 3'ga., cls.37, for sale 10/87, scrap 6/88
4331 Blw 1878 5 4-4-0 12 16 45 Denver & Rio Grande Rio Bravo 26 3'ga., cls.38, scrap 8/98
4738 Blw 1879 7 4-4-0 12 16 45 Denver & Rio Grande Culebra 35 3'ga., cls.38, sold 2/93 (via G.M.Dilley) Bering Manufacturing Co. 00
4825 Blw 1879 10 4-4-0 12 16 45 Denver & Rio Grande San Juan 36 3'ga., cls.38, (bot.thru Phila.& Col.Eq.) sld.8/93 Cameron Lumber Mills 36 ? (from D&RG via G.M.Dilley), sold RGS 36 Vol9pg249pdf186-3ftDRG1879_8-18.5C24-27_29-33dwg2Rd85-96
4948 Blw 1880 1 4-4-0 12 18 45 Denver & Rio Grande Fort De Remer 85 3'ga., cls.42, sold 1/00 ($2000) Gurdon Lumber Co. 00 (Gurdon Ark), sold Morris Lbr. Vol9pg249pdf186-3ftDRG1879_8-18.5C24-27_29-33dwg2Rd85-96
5042 Blw 1880 4 4-4-0 12 18 45 Denver & Rio Grande San Miguel 86 3'ga., cls.42, sold 7/96 ($1800) Torres & Prietas (FC) (A. Prietas) 1 (Mexico) sold (bu /10) FC Mex.el Un. 1 Vol9pg249pdf186-3ftDRG1879_8-18.5C24-27_29-33dwg2Rd85-96
5053 Blw 1880 4 4-4-0 12 18 45 Denver & Rio Grande Rio Alto 87 3'ga., cls.42, sold 12/94 Sanford & Saint Petersburg Railway 11 sold /00 Flint Riv.Lbr. Vol9pg249pdf186-3ftDRG1879_8-18.5C24-27_29-33dwg2Rd85-96
5105 Blw 1880 5 4-4-0 12 16 45 Denver & Rio Grande Eagle River 89 3'ga., cls.38, sold 8/93 George M. Dilley & Sons 00 (dealer) sold 5/00 M.Elmore Vol9pg249pdf186-3ftDRG1879_8-18.5C24-27_29-33dwg2Rd85-96
5106 Blw 1880 5 4-4-0 12 16 45 Denver & Rio Grande Wasatch 90 3'ga., cls.38, sold 8/98 R. E. Trahue 00
5107 Blw 1880 5 4-4-0 12 16 45 Denver & Rio Grande Ten Mile 91 3'ga., cls.38, sold 8/93 (via G.M.Dilley) Teche Railroad & Sugar Co. 00 sold /95 Teche RR
5118 Blw 1880 5 4-4-0 12 18 45 Denver & Rio Grande Mogollon 92 3'ga., cls.42, sold 12/94 Sanford & Saint Petersburg Railway 12 road reb.std./95, sold /98 ACL 801 Vol9pg249pdf186-3ftDRG1879_8-18.5C24-27_29-33dwg2Rd85-96
5119 Blw 1880 5 4-4-0 12 18 45 Denver & Rio Grande Roaring Forks 93 3'ga., cls.42, sold 11/91 Rio Grande Southern Railroad 36 cls.42, sold /93 Ark.Lbr. Vol9pg249pdf186-3ftDRG1879_8-18.5C24-27_29-33dwg2Rd85-96
5139 Blw 1880 6 4-4-0 12 18 45 Denver & Rio Grande Gunnison 94 3'ga., cls.42, sold 2/86 Denver & Rio Grande Western Railway 94 sold /89 RGW 94 Vol9pg249pdf186-3ftDRG1879_8-18.5C24-27_29-33dwg2Rd85-96
5140 Blw 1880 6 4-4-0 12 18 45 Denver & Rio Grande Embuda 95 3'ga., cls.42, sold 2/86 Denver & Rio Grande Western 95 sold /89 RGW 94 Vol9pg249pdf186-3ftDRG1879_8-18.5C24-27_29-33dwg2Rd85-96
5144 Blw 1880 6 4-4-0 12 18 45 Denver & Rio Grande Morena 96 3'ga., cls.42, ret.6/03 Vol9pg249pdf186-3ftDRG1879_8-18.5C24-27_29-33dwg2Rd85-96
5198 Blw 1880 8 4-4-0 12 18 45 Denver & Rio Grande Ptarmigan 88 3'ga., cls.42, sold 2/86 Denver & Rio Grande Western Railway 88 sold /89 RGW 88
5425 Blw 1880 12 4-4-0 12 18 45 Denver & Rio Grande Kokomo 99 3'ga., cls.42, sold 1/94 Sanford & Saint Petersburg Railway 9(2nd) sold 1/98 Flint Riv.Lbr.
5436 Blw 1881 1 4-4-0 12 18 45 Denver & Rio Grande Hesperus 100 3'ga., cls.42, scrap 6/08
5441 Blw 1881 1 4-4-0 12 18 45 Denver & Rio Grande Colonel Boone 101(2nd) 3'ga., cls.42, scrap 8/98
6631 Blw 1883 2 4-4-0 12 18 45 Denver & Rio Grande 107 3'ga., cls.42.5, sold 7/86 Rio Grande Western 107 sold /89 D&RGW 107
6631 Blw 1883 2 4-4-0 12 18 45 Denver & Rio Grande Western Railway 107 3'ga., ex /89 RGW 107, scrap 8/98
6632 Blw 1883 2 4-4-0 12 18 45 Denver & Rio Grande 108 3'ga., cls.42.5, sold 7/86 Denver & Rio Grande Western Railway 108 cls.42.5, sold /89 RGW 15
6633 Blw 1883 2 4-4-0 12 18 45 Denver & Rio Grande 109 3'ga., cls.42.5, sold 7/86 Denver & Rio Grande Western Railway 109 cls.42.5, sold /89 RGW 16

[edan.si.edu]

At the DeGolyer here are definitely scans of drawings that I've order of Brazilian locomotives. 90 drawings so far some part drawings. As I identify the order specs for the drawings I post the information in the Tags.

http://digitalcollections.smu.edu/cdm/s ... mode/exact
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